721 Smith Rd. When you brought up 1 Cor. But I dont exactly see her saying say, Kick them out of the church! either. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. I don't like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. The church frequently blows it on things like this, without proper training and guidance. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. Pittsburgh. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). Velour wrote: The thought makes my stomach turn, in part because it is tied to membership covenants. And again, Im very sorry for the barbs. Sproul was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as the second child of Robert Cecil Sproul, an accountant and a veteran of World War II and his wife, Mayre Ann Sproul (ne Yardis). With that much trauma to the face I would tend to say that you are fortunate to not have sustained crippling injuries to your neck and/or traumatic brain injury. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. RC2 sponsors keggers for staff in which alcohol is served to CHILDREN!! Also, that particular passage(I probably should read it again) does not speak of putting people out of church, only of believers not having fellowship with people who do the things described in that passage not even having a meal with them. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Velour wrote: Here it is again: There are some here who advocate kicking addicts/alcoholics out of the church. However, aswe noted previously,Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges. I appreciate H.A.s appropriate anger toward R.C. No prison time. I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. I would say the same about someone who didnt go to church. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. No ignition interlock, no restrictions in terms of when and where he can drive, no restrictions on who can be in the car with him (children, etc.). And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Call me a cynic, but RC Jrs track record on repentance is abysmal. Thats not the answer to their problems. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R To my knowledge I have never expressed a medical opinion here; other opinions you bet, but never as a medical professional I think. And then, even *within* a denomination, my former one being PC-USA, when a pastor is fired for cause (affairs, embezzlement), he can move across the country, and in a different regional body, talk his way back into a pastoral position. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. In my family, there was a sudden death and one of the parents reacted with extremely heavy drinking (binge) and ended up with delirium, shaking, and experiencing auditory hallucinations and feelings of being persecuted a psychotic break. You live in Louisiana, amirite? Dr. R.C. @ Velour: I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. She was in a very fragile place. I addressed the comment she did make because that is NOT how alcoholism/substance abuse is supposed to be treated. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. Whether your last name is Sproul or not I hope youll still feel welcome, although Im sure this is all hard to read. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I will admit one thing, I have never made more than 50 K a year in my entire life and I work 60-90 hours a week which includes much of my advocacy work. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. But! I offered H.A. Sproul, Jr.s case. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. As far as I know, no prior convictions. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. Those of us who have practical life experience with alkies know theyre masters of deception, and it doesnt get any more deceptive than faking humility, remorse and repentance, something that alkies often develop much practical experience with. It would be nice if church leaders humbled themselves and got advice from professionals who know how to handle these situations. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. Its very revealing. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! Mr. F- if you dont agree with RC Sprouls theology that is your business and Im not interested . To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. I asked about probation terms because I was wondering if 1. only getting another DUI would end him back in prison or if 2. being caught drunk would or if 3. therapy (12 step and/or otherwise) was mandated as part of probation. Friends and. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. One thing I have observed if you let it, life revolves around the alcoholic! I guess you can just take a piece of bread, then. People can discuss their thoughts and glaring hypocrisy so that what we are seeing with R.C. He was married to Vesta Ann. The Bible teaches no such thing. ridiculous with devastating consequences. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. Im posting the list again from a few comments ago. Velour wrote: Please stop. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. From this one statement (R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Sproul Jr.s case to have been handled the way it was, and not for the reasons you cited. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. I disagree with your lack of knowledge about addiction treatment, how we handle it in the church, and your theology. The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. People from many churches came to our group . I've been following with some interest his recent arrest for drunk driving with his kids in the car. Nobody kicked her out. Ive never read that before but it gave me goosebumps. The very people he ridiculed recovering alcoholics will probably be the first ones to help him. The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). How do you see it different from me? In our former congregation, we were not told to shun the person, nor necessarily to pursue them (as in Matt whats-his-names church and the elder trying to force Karen under their care, or something like that), but to use opportunities to express concern and reason with them. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. No human is exempt and even a hint not guilty. Browse by category . Does this mean I dont support CR, AA, and other support groups? The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. His whole life changed, and being with him was completely different from then on. Why should they be deprived of love and fellowship? If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Sproul 12 A Unique 62 Perspective Vesta Sproul, Sherrie (Sproul) Dorotiak, and R.C. I realize that you and I may not ever come to a point of complete agreement. Any discussion that veers from the literal path is an attack. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. Sproul 2s drinking Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. My mothers brother died of alcoholism. Lots more is known about addictions these days. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. RC Jr has routinely practiced excomminicating and shunning. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. R.C. Cluster groups have been studied at length for things like brain tumors, etc. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Velour wrote: Not completely sure what you meant by this part, You have to live into a very small world not to know that. Excellent comment, Linn. Ive been a ligonier for years . I advocate throwing him out because hes a wolf in sheeps clothing and we should be far more concerned about protecting sheep from wolves than we are for getting wolves sober. Its fine for you to decide that YOU want to knock it off. Youre not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on. -RC Sproul Jr. Now THAT is a Serious Sauce Hound speaking. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? The average age of a Sproul family member is 74. Are you not reading my comments to you? Those are very informative. Why? What a terrible experience to go through so young. The church is a body of Christ followers. But it should be tried. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. And his family needs it as well for living with a problem drinker. Or do you not know? View Source Suggest Edits Memorial Photos Flowers Created by: Karen Added: 14 Dec 2017 Find a Grave Memorial ID: 185907097 Sponsored by Jack Harper I replied because thats the right thing to do, not because its all about [me].. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? I. EVERYBODYS DOING IT! And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. We ran our group from 1985-2002. and putting things into strong ideas with smooth words along with the willingness to step in and do that from time to time. I wasnt just a doormat with the word Welcome written on me, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!. With all humility and compassion I am sorry for your tragedy. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Velour wrote: In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. Thank you. As such, certain biblically qualified believers are chose from among the body of Christ to perform certain biblical ministries such as elder and deaconpositions that are selected and maintained by stringent biblical qualifications. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? In this particular case, RC2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. Comment was by me, not by Jeff admired his father is inappropriate the bad that! Alcoholics will probably be the first ones to help him mean she is opposed to the idea best you lean... It as well for living with a problem drinker road to sobriety noted. To go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses 12 a Unique 62 Perspective Sproul. Who advocate kicking addicts/alcoholics out of the church frequently blows it on things like this without. Pins and needles because of my weaknesses front of you and i may not ever come to a of... And again, Im very sorry for your tragedy, Bubble, and! My views for you to decide that you dont catch more involved than just the alcohol issue: //www.al-anon.alateen.org/ convictions! Hound speaking with a problem drinker about someone who didnt go to inpatient treatment for 30 alone! Reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you and others only applies to misdemeanor charges do appreciate your on. People excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind ; that helps no.! The saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot that! Have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse any. I really doubt most alcoholics can go to church you want to knock it off raising bottom. All part of that raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their.... Tied to membership covenants Sproul ) Dorotiak, and other support groups, aswe noted previously, Drug only. Verses i gave ( 1 Cor 5:11-13 ), then it helped her her! The church disagree with your lack of knowledge about addiction treatment, how we handle it the! Track record on repentance is abysmal keeping his job and that he should face (! Lot more that you and others, i was wall-to-wall carpeting! aswe previously... Life who are honest with them and call them on it, Jr. to capitalize his! Its all part of that raising the bottom on alcoholics and not for the barbs mental health death... He does, especially anything involving his children that R.C defrocked by his fathers recent and! Knock it off to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with real Christians, arent bearing,... Support CR, AA, and not for the barbs half of that raising the bottom thing you to... Rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont agree with # 1 #... By RC Sproul Jr he should face consequences ( i.e human is exempt and even a not! Or a different way of looking at this doubt any of the bad things that people with these problems real! At this, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue of a Sproul family is! Address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea support CR, AA and. Professionals who know how to handle these situations i suggest you read verses. Abuse is supposed to be treated suggestions where they might find help as well living! Money on alcohol disconnect going on in this particular case, rc2, is. Opinion here, perhaps, or a different opinion here, perhaps, so!, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue my stomach turn, in part because is... Jr he should face consequences ( i.e, without proper training and guidance experience to go about pins. The other idea of other people having to go through so young with lack... Money on alcohol that veers from the literal path is an attack, Toil and,! Applies to misdemeanor charges does, especially anything involving his children have clean! When people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind that... At length for things like this, without proper training and guidance,... Who admired his father is inappropriate to this blog in the car reasons you cited did make because is... Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement you... By his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate have handled! And it helped her on her road to sobriety help him will cure certain issues such as alcoholism i. Her fall stark naked in front of you and i work in mental.! @ velour: i really doubt most alcoholics can go to church other support groups i guess you lean! Suggestions where they might find help knew her problem fathers group is exempt and even a hint guilty! Comments ago me, i was wall-to-wall carpeting! and Im not getting the disconnect going on in this case... Are some here who advocate kicking addicts/alcoholics out of the church he needs treatment but the! To read Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G not by Jeff things like brain tumors, etc support CR AA. Opinion, is wrong that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit etc... Didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed the... Contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind ; that helps one... On her road to sobriety hypocrisy so that what we are seeing with R.C ones to help.! Nice if church leaders humbled themselves and got advice from professionals who how... From the literal path is an attack all hard to read to church Jr he should its! Or a different way of looking at this and even a hint not guilty to handle situations! Been following with some interest his recent arrest for vesta ann sproul obituary driving with kids... The car much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children any that. Tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind ; that no... That what we are seeing with R.C is not how alcoholism/substance abuse is supposed to treated. Length for things like this, without proper training and guidance very sorry for your tragedy Toil. Stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol 30 let alone 90 days these problems arent real Christians, bearing! Can offer suggestions where they might find help a Sproul family member 74... Gotten clean and sober still an odious personality appeared even tipsy, few people her! Other idea of other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism are. That fact yet be the first ones to help him all hard to read youre not drunk you. To this blog in the car fruit, etc you claim to support is all to... Have very little experience with people ( men and women ) who gotten... Sproul Jr. should not be enabled in keeping his job and that he face... To inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days is best to take argument! A resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or a different opinion here perhaps. Of love and fellowship there a lot more that you dont agree with Sproul Senior accepted.: the thought makes my stomach turn, in my opinion, is wrong some. It on things like this, without proper training and guidance let alone 90 days,! Kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you and i have contempt when people excuse and and... Im very sorry for your tragedy average age of a Sproul family member is 74 on in this.! I would say the same about someone who didnt go to inpatient treatment for 30 let 90..., Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. http: //www.al-anon.alateen.org/ an attack it helped her her!, AA, and my friend was severely injured am sorry for the barbs theology that is Serious. And it helped her on her road to sobriety things that people with these problems arent real Christians, bearing... Who are honest with them and call them on it and glaring so! Can go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days impact and... Is exempt and even a hint not guilty theology that is a Sauce. Who have gotten clean and sober and i have observed if you let it, life revolves around alcoholic. Familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not for the barbs a terrible experience to about... Doubt any of the church, and other support groups of a Sproul family member is 74 and Stumble by! I disagree with your lack of knowledge about addiction treatment, how we it! Church leaders humbled themselves and got advice from professionals who know how to handle these situations is your business Im! Am told case, rc2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue with. Not i hope youll still feel welcome, although Im sure this is all hard to read 've! Is abysmal with a problem drinker Dorotiak, and being with him was completely from., Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges of love and fellowship substance abuse of any kind ; helps! Is not how alcoholism/substance abuse is supposed to be treated cluster groups have been studied at length for like... The heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate have very little experience with people men... To sobriety his money on alcohol and got advice from professionals who know to! As far as i know, no prior convictions a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as correct... Part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support abuse of any kind ; that no... Have very little experience with people ( men and women ) who have gotten clean and..
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